Massive censorship at Predictor !!!


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Profile DoctorNow
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Message 2740 - Posted 23 Mar 2007 22:59:33 UTC

Predictor@home is censoring massively at their boards and is restricting the freedom of opinion of their registered users in an inappropriate manner.
After a discussion had started about the attitude of the project administration towards a big cheating issue in this thread that thread was closed immediately to avoid any different opinion.

After that any new discussion thread and any question concerning "censorship" were "answered" with the immediate deletion of the postings/threads. Even accounts were fully blocked for posting (in the case of my team member until the year 2038!!).

I think it is not acceptable that the freedom of opinion is restricted in that way and I want to ask the BOINC community members to form an opinion about this. Try for yourself and start asking about this all at the P@H message boards!

In between even account creation was disabled to prevent the "bad users" from posting further questions. After that didn't help meanwhile whole IP ranges are blocked from access to the complete Predictor homepage!

There's an ongoing discussion over at the BOINCstats forum, where also the beginning of this whole mess is to be found. See: Trojan boinc installation by rogue member

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Message 2747 - Posted 24 Mar 2007 10:58:49 UTC
Last modified: 24 Mar 2007 11:11:59 UTC

I regard censorship as what should be punished, but I don't think every modifying of threads must be blamed. IMO there are too few features for a moderator at boinc standard forum like delete or move. It's possible to block users from posting, but I heard once that the period is limited within a few weaks. I don't think a moderator can block such a long period at "boinc standard forum". I'm not sure whether at phpBB it is so too or not.

I think it is not acceptable that the freedom of opinion is restricted in that way and I want to ask the BOINC community members to form an opinion about this. Try for yourself and start asking about this all at the P@H message boards!

I totally agree. Freedom of thinking opinions should fully be ensured, but nevertheless it doesn't mean that to show opinions which are enough to make the forum disorder or irrelevant to a context of threads/forums/projects need to be also secured. Discussions that have even a little connexions with the project is naturally to be secured, but how about is that discussion at predictor@home? Well...actually there is the relationship, but at least there isn't with this project, docking@home. Thanks for noticing it, anyway :D

Also considered "motives" of forum moderators, the reason why project moderator modify the threads isn't often besed on their own sake, unlike that of politics. Politicians are said that they censor the freedom of speach to hide what is inconvenient for themselves, but is it same for boinc forum moderator too? I don't really think so... If docking@home 'hid' a information with a concrete evidence which says, for example, they 'were' selling results to someone, that 'were' nothing but censorship.

thanks,
suguruhirahara
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Message 2748 - Posted 24 Mar 2007 14:10:00 UTC

I was going to wait to say anything but since we forgot to tell Suguru (sorry about that Suguru) and he responded to the OP, I will go ahead and say that I emailed Andre about this yesterday and we're looking into it. So far, I haven't found anything that contradicts the original post in this thread, and I have found a lot that seems to support it.

Let's just remember that this is a public forum and things should be considered as alleged until proven. We don't want to get into the legal minefield of who said what about who.

For now, I'd just ask that we keep it calm here while things work themselves up to the various people in charge of some projects. That process has been started. They can verify facts for the people in charge of other projects and handle this well above the moderator level.

This thread remains open. Please keep it kid friendly.

Happy Crunching,

-- David Ball
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Message 2751 - Posted 24 Mar 2007 15:45:54 UTC - in response to Message ID 2748 .
Last modified: 24 Mar 2007 15:46:29 UTC

This thread remains open. Please keep it kid friendly.

Happy Crunching,

-- David Ball


I agree, although it can be frustrating that a project shuts doors to prevent discussing... let's not create a overheated discussion here.

;-)
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Message 2752 - Posted 24 Mar 2007 16:20:58 UTC - in response to Message ID 2748 .

I was going to wait to say anything but since we forgot to tell Suguru (sorry about that Suguru) and he responded to the OP, I will go ahead and say that I emailed Andre about this yesterday and we're looking into it. So far, I haven't found anything that contradicts the original post in this thread, and I have found a lot that seems to support it.

Let's just remember that this is a public forum and things should be considered as alleged until proven. We don't want to get into the legal minefield of who said what about who.

For now, I'd just ask that we keep it calm here while things work themselves up to the various people in charge of some projects. That process has been started. They can verify facts for the people in charge of other projects and handle this well above the moderator level.

This thread remains open. Please keep it kid friendly.

Happy Crunching,

-- David Ball


Oh, I couldn't notice that you've dared not to talk about it! :(

I know it's terrible when flames appear over a forum, actially, experienced them at Rosetta@home some months ago.
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Message 2754 - Posted 24 Mar 2007 17:51:43 UTC - in response to Message ID 2752 .

Oh, I couldn't notice that you've dared not to talk about it! :(

I know it's terrible when flames appear over a forum, actially, experienced them at Rosetta@home some months ago.


I left it alone here and started researching things by email and by reading other forums. I didn't want to speak for the project on this since I'm just a volunteer.

Actually, in all my time as a moderator for D@H, I've still never deleted a post or closed a thread.

I noticed that Cori was banned from Predictor. That is the same Cori who worked on the Docking@Home logo / banner isn't it? When I checked the Predictor forums this morning, it looks like she's in her 5th incarnation and there's a thread that has reached 40+ posts.

BTW, you're a member of BOINC Synergy. Could you look at page 2 of the thread titled "Trojan boinc installation by rogue member" and mention to Saenger that he has David Braun @Rosetta rather than @Predictor.

OT: Re-reading the forums at other projects reminded me of some of the credit arguments and made me very happy that Docking@Home has already addressed that.

-- David Ball




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Message 2764 - Posted 24 Mar 2007 23:03:08 UTC - in response to Message ID 2754 .
Last modified: 24 Mar 2007 23:34:30 UTC

... I noticed that Cori was banned from Predictor. That is the same Cori who worked on the Docking@Home logo / banner isn't it? When I checked the Predictor forums this morning, it looks like she's in her 5th incarnation and there's a thread that has reached 40+ posts...

Hello David!

Yes, it's me! I was in fact banned 5 times... ;-)

I was really embarrassed about how things went at P@H yesterday.
Initially I wasn't pleased with how the P@H admin dealt with the "trojan BOINC installations" crunching for the account of a certain user. But before the discussion started my post and I think the posts of at least two other users were deleted.
After that the question arose why we weren't "allowed" to express our opinions. Things were going rough after that, because posts/threads were deleted faster than you can hit "reply". ;-)
And after accounts have been blocked from posting (until 2038 *LOL*), account creation was closed to prevent new postings. The "end" was a number of blocked ip ranges, so I wasn't able to reach the whole site including my account(s) for several hours. :-(

The thing which made me most worried was the fact that my and most of the other users postings were/are not offending. And I don't like to be restriced that massively in expressing my point of view. Ok, we were not happy and we made that clear, but no one was insulted. After a while some sarcasm was the only way to cope with the situation, but still I don't think I and most others posted insulting content.

Too bad, there are always some who are getting rude when angry. At least I can say I tried to calm down the latest user posting.

And the only thing I really wish is an appropriate way of dealing with the "W*** issue" and to get unblocked. Maybe a little apology from the P@H admin to the community would do good as well.
So I am very glad to hear there's something done "behind the scenes". That was the intention of spreading this thread around the BOINC boards.

Sorry for this long posting, guys! ;-) But I felt I had to make this mess that happened a little more understandable. And thanks a lot for keeping this thread open. :-)


EDIT: darn typos. *grin*
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Message 2767 - Posted 25 Mar 2007 1:41:21 UTC

Hi Cori,

Haven't seen you posting here in a while. I'm glad to see you're back. Give your avatar, Garfield, some Lasagna for me.

Well, I'm not sure that my attempt at keeping things low key and behind the scenes worked. At least, not the low key and behind the scenes part. There's quite a discussion on the boinc_projects mailing list now. It has mutated into a discussion of how to prevent something like a trojan installer from a technical standpoint. People have some interesting ideas.

-- David Ball (Big Garfield the cat fan who also loves Lasagna)
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Message 2774 - Posted 25 Mar 2007 9:02:05 UTC
Last modified: 25 Mar 2007 9:12:16 UTC

Hello again,

I found the moderator's opinion at predictor@home;

Freedom of Speech issue: I think that schools have really failed here. Freedom of speech does not mean that you can say anything anywhere you want. It means that I can criticize the government, which I do often, and there is nothing that they can do about it. It does not mean that you can walk into my house to express your opinion, you can't use my phone, computer, wireless, or the P@H server without permission. That permission can be revoked at any time. If you invite me to your home and discover that I like to talk about the KKK, which most people might find offensive, you can ask me to leave. If I refuse to leave you can call the police and have me arrested. There is no freedom of speech issue here. When you are on someone's property and you are ask to leave you have to leave.

That's why the system of law includes the the topic of "abuse of right". When you read the textbook of law, you'll find it very fundamental idea of Civil Code. Those who think it is legally unacceptable had better allege the case to the court. It's the most welcomed way for the society.

But we may question that what the moderator is doing is also the abuse of right or not. Yeah... for me it's interesting case.
Several users decided that they were going to ignore my request and reopened the thread.

It's like a "hand-made" DoS attack, anyway :(
Again, it's not your server. It's mine. Just as a property manager or security guard can ask you to leave a shopping mall I can ask you to leave our server.

The difference between the local governance and the governance at P@H is here; the owner of your property (whether it belongs to real right or not) is yourself, whereas the onwer of their property is themselves.

BTW why don't people install any security software against such a trojan? It is this that the very root of this issue.
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Message 2776 - Posted 25 Mar 2007 11:52:42 UTC

new Members cant get help at Predictor anymore - they cant post - you need an minimum of credit - but it says not how much

I think they dont need any supporters beside Wate

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Message 2777 - Posted 25 Mar 2007 12:19:34 UTC

This is one project crossed off my to do list. I agree its their property (the server) and they can do much what they please. I also think teams should blacklist this project. My team leader is on a holiday at the moment or i would have messaged him already (its not something a temp leader should decide) about B@A taking a stand.
Its sad really i created an account and then our AA6 got a very early start so it went on the back burner. Oh well Predictor doesn't get a share of my 6 cores means Docking gets a larger share once AA6 is over so its not all bad news is it.
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Message 2781 - Posted 25 Mar 2007 14:14:33 UTC - in response to Message ID 2777 .
Last modified: 25 Mar 2007 14:20:59 UTC

This is one project crossed off my to do list. I agree its their property (the server) and they can do much what they please. I also think teams should blacklist this project. My team leader is on a holiday at the moment or i would have messaged him already (its not something a temp leader should decide) about B@A taking a stand. Its sad really i created an account and then our AA6 got a very early start so it went on the back burner. Oh well Predictor doesn't get a share of my 6 cores means Docking gets a larger share once AA6 is over so its not all bad news is it.

Actually it's voluntary to crunch a project, because it's the donation; those who want to do it should do it. Since each member of a team had the right to crunch projects, I'd let it be.

Still, let's think this again; what do we participate any project for? There can be many answers as well as the number of the participants, but the one of the most clear and general is to help the science, from computing to public education (like the newsletters written by guys at UTEP), be progressed. Is the event at P@H much more serious than the point?
And I don't think it's good idea to blame them on this board for what they've done. We, especially I, can educate ourselves thanks to the happening, though :)
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Message 2792 - Posted 25 Mar 2007 16:40:11 UTC - in response to Message ID 2781 .

This is one project crossed off my to do list. I agree its their property (the server) and they can do much what they please. I also think teams should blacklist this project. My team leader is on a holiday at the moment or i would have messaged him already (its not something a temp leader should decide) about B@A taking a stand. Its sad really i created an account and then our AA6 got a very early start so it went on the back burner. Oh well Predictor doesn't get a share of my 6 cores means Docking gets a larger share once AA6 is over so its not all bad news is it.

Actually it's voluntary to crunch a project, because it's the donation; those who want to do it should do it. Since each member of a team had the right to crunch projects, I'd let it be.

Still, let's think this again; what do we participate any project for? There can be many answers as well as the number of the participants, but the one of the most clear and general is to help the science, from computing to public education (like the newsletters written by guys at UTEP), be progressed. Is the event at P@H much more serious than the point?
And I don't think it's good idea to blame them on this board for what they've done. We, especially I, can educate ourselves thanks to the happening, though :)

Even on Seti@home in the (old) flame wars, nobody was banned until 2038 !
Sure, they do what they want in "their" forums and this is not the first time that has happened.
But if participants can learn, project administrator needs too.
People are not dogs or zombies.
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Message 2795 - Posted 25 Mar 2007 19:08:08 UTC - in response to Message ID 2781 .
Last modified: 25 Mar 2007 19:09:10 UTC

This is one project crossed off my to do list. I agree its their property (the server) and they can do much what they please. I also think teams should blacklist this project. My team leader is on a holiday at the moment or i would have messaged him already (its not something a temp leader should decide) about B@A taking a stand. Its sad really i created an account and then our AA6 got a very early start so it went on the back burner. Oh well Predictor doesn't get a share of my 6 cores means Docking gets a larger share once AA6 is over so its not all bad news is it.

Actually it's voluntary to crunch a project, because it's the donation; those who want to do it should do it. Since each member of a team had the right to crunch projects, I'd let it be.

Still, let's think this again; what do we participate any project for? There can be many answers as well as the number of the participants, but the one of the most clear and general is to help the science, from computing to public education (like the newsletters written by guys at UTEP), be progressed. Is the event at P@H much more serious than the point?
And I don't think it's good idea to blame them on this board for what they've done. We, especially I, can educate ourselves thanks to the happening, though :)


I think given the attitude that many have received that people would rather donate their time to projects that do not act in the way that P@H has. I was looking forward to crunching there again but instead I will turn my resources (as small as they are) to other projects.

BTW: I think that the D@H team has done an outstanding job of responding to our questions and keeping us upto date as to what is happening in matters of D@H. Kudos to D@H!!

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Message 2799 - Posted 25 Mar 2007 20:58:37 UTC - in response to Message ID 2767 .

Hi Cori,

Haven't seen you posting here in a while. I'm glad to see you're back. Give your avatar, Garfield, some Lasagna for me.

Well, I'm not sure that my attempt at keeping things low key and behind the scenes worked. At least, not the low key and behind the scenes part. There's quite a discussion on the boinc_projects mailing list now. It has mutated into a discussion of how to prevent something like a trojan installer from a technical standpoint. People have some interesting ideas.

-- David Ball (Big Garfield the cat fan who also loves Lasagna)

Hi David!

THX for the Lasagna! Garfield is purring loudly! :-))))

And like Acmefrog said already: biiiiiig thanks for your effort to this whole subject! Maybe things aren't low key & behind the scenes anymore, but with people like you here and the other project crew people they can only get better.
And I'm happy if the outcome is something good to prevent such things in future!

Lots of sunshine from Germany! (Ok, it's already dark here but we had beautiful spring weather today! ;-))


Cori
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Message 2800 - Posted 25 Mar 2007 21:35:12 UTC

Hi,

Since the abbreviated versions of the project names are similar, I just wanted to clarify one thing for people who are reading this. It's the Predictor@Home project (P@H) that everyone is upset about, not this project.

Apparently this argument started on the Predictor forums and is now being discussed in other project forums, Team websites, and some mailing lists.

Please remember that it isn't our project, Docking@Home (D@H), that everyone is upset about.

The views of the various posters are their own and do not represent any official position of Docking@Home.

Happy Crunching,

-- David



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Message 2838 - Posted 28 Mar 2007 10:05:17 UTC - in response to Message ID 2800 .

... Please remember that it isn't our project, Docking@Home (D@H), that everyone is upset about.

[snip]

Happy Crunching,

-- David

Yes, D@H are the "good guys"! ;-))

And since I have some free cpu cycles now I decided to upgrade the BOINC client to 5.8.15 on one of my boxes to crunch more Docking-WUs.

Man, I really have to improve my RAC here... *grin*
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Message 2839 - Posted 28 Mar 2007 11:37:55 UTC - in response to Message ID 2838 .

snip
Yes, D@H are the "good guys"! ;-))

And since I have some free cpu cycles now I decided to upgrade the BOINC client to 5.8.15 on one of my boxes to crunch more Docking-WUs.

Man, I really have to improve my RAC here... *grin*


Thanks for the kind words about D@H!!!

I'm glad to see you'll be crunching more Docking WUs. Maybe we'll see you more often in the forums. A lot of people never seemed to post again after the Christmas break. It's been very quiet in the forums here lately.

Happy Crunching,

-- David
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Message 2841 - Posted 28 Mar 2007 12:22:04 UTC
Last modified: 28 Mar 2007 12:23:48 UTC

It's really a shame but I must admit I simply "forgot" a bit about Docking... guess I was too busy hopping around the projects and boards.

I definitely never left Docking (for some while until now) because of anything bad!

This project is one of those that could give the best example of how to keep its participants happy: by being informative (just see the newsletters!!) and responsive to questions.
And you guys know how to keep a warm and friendly atmosphere here at the boards as well.

So the best thing one could say about the P @H mess is that I re-discovered Docking! ;-)))
And I promise to come here more often... Besides helping others I always like a good chit-chat.


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Message 2891 - Posted 1 Apr 2007 13:36:10 UTC

Alright, I'll write something here to blow some life back in the forums ;-)

I think that for a lot of people, Predictor is history. They've handled all of this really bad, and don't even seem intend on giving an excuse. I tried crunching a bit for them when they got back a month or so ago, but with the recent happenings I'm gone forever. That just leaves more free cycles for Docking :-)

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Message 2901 - Posted 1 Apr 2007 21:05:27 UTC

Have a gooood laugh at this one, you gotta love it:

BOINC News - First Quarter Results

(Btw: Remember we have still 1 Apr 2007... *grin*)
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Message 2908 - Posted 2 Apr 2007 8:30:28 UTC - in response to Message ID 2901 .

Have a gooood laugh at this one, you gotta love it:

BOINC News - First Quarter Results

(Btw: Remember we have still 1 Apr 2007... *grin*)

Whenever it is the post can be seen as apperance of the genuine thought, btw :p
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Message 2912 - Posted 2 Apr 2007 12:22:53 UTC - in response to Message ID 2908 .

Whenever it is the post can be seen as apperance of the genuine thought, btw :p

That's why I really love it! ;-)))
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Message 3107 - Posted 24 Apr 2007 10:00:28 UTC
Last modified: 24 Apr 2007 10:10:36 UTC

I'm sad that I was Banned there too, I rebooted that old via of mine thousands of times when it would hang their tasks, I got 19 k with that processor there @ about 29 cobblestones a day thats a couple of years (running), learned alot about bioscience ,changed 'cince I was in school ;-)

The post for which I was banned was simply "Please say You are looking into this" but perhaps Canadian doesn't translate so well.

I was all happy about the 64bit app too , oh well.

With the plethora of new projects competing with them, i hope they see the light and listen to the suggestion of Mo.v and accept Ageless (Jord) and Saenger, or whoever as moderators, and listen to them and become informed. Admittedly it was an unlikely and unusual event, but not unique, and past message board presence was abysmal, problems not addressed for months, this seemed to have changed with the new "tasks' Mr.Braun did answer all My questions about the tasks previously to s.h.f.d.. Their new task requiring huge ram will hopefully force them to rethink their relationship with 'this mob''of children'.

speaking of which Carl over at cpdn wrote a great paper on boinc participants where He talked about the relationship with the crunchers and it's importance to them due to the size of wu and amount of dedication and time it takes to successfully complete it { I'v looked for a few days for it cant find it it was a pdf}

I have left 'banned for life' and returned to Synergy when I found I am no longer banned, IMHO Mr. Braun, is as He say, young, this is His first sysad job He was realy busy, but as I says " He _ " .I believe You can't learn to skii if You don't fall down - But if You don't learn anything by falling down, You shouldn't skii.remember that old 'wide world of sports' tv show that opened with that poor guy whipeing out down the down the hill end over end for the two minutes while they played there theme intro ? Well in My book this is twice Predictor has looked like that in my eyes.

(sorry for rambling on like this, but I am only going to make 1 post on this topic and this is it)

Someone said they boinc for the science, Me I boinc for the scientist ;-)

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Message 3115 - Posted 26 Apr 2007 19:08:47 UTC

Don't hope anything, nothing will change on Predictor board.
Censorship has been working again 2 days ago (user account deleted, credits deleted, team deleted, posts deleted).
A big shame...

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Message 3163 - Posted 28 Apr 2007 12:41:59 UTC

And IP¨banned again.

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Message 3165 - Posted 28 Apr 2007 15:20:58 UTC - in response to Message ID 3163 .

And IP¨banned again.

and "legend in his own mind" Ageless is about the only one posting, and is in fact taunting people in the Cafe about not being able to post.
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Message 3169 - Posted 28 Apr 2007 16:50:06 UTC

people, please keep in mind that this forum is at docking@home, not predictor@home... I don't tend to discourage you from posting, anyway.

thanks,
suguruhirahara
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Message 3170 - Posted 28 Apr 2007 17:33:12 UTC - in response to Message ID 3169 .

people, please keep in mind that this forum is at docking@home, not predictor@home... I don't tend to discourage you from posting, anyway.

thanks,
suguruhirahara


What does this mean?
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Message 3171 - Posted 28 Apr 2007 17:45:18 UTC - in response to Message ID 3107 .

In my experience, any project that has a major connection with Scripps (Sorry guys) starts out with a bang, but winds up having the worst public relations.

I don't know what it is with Scripps, but as soon as a project gets up and running, it generally gets completely forgotten about.

*I hope the people here don't follow that trend*

It all started with FAAH. (Fight AIDS At Home) wayyy before there was the BOINC platform. Let's not get me started on how much of a mess that turned into (and still is).

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Message 3173 - Posted 28 Apr 2007 18:02:13 UTC - in response to Message ID 3170 .

people, please keep in mind that this forum is at docking@home, not predictor@home... I don't tend to discourage you from posting, anyway.

thanks,
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What does this mean?

I mean, here is the place for docking, so blaming them isnt so good idea, you see.
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Message 3174 - Posted 28 Apr 2007 18:51:04 UTC - in response to Message ID 3173 .

people, please keep in mind that this forum is at docking@home, not predictor@home... I don't tend to discourage you from posting, anyway.

thanks,
suguruhirahara


What does this mean?

I mean, here is the place for docking, so blaming them isnt so good idea, you see.


Excuse me, but isn't this entire thread about censorship at Predictor?

And now you're telling me we can't discuss that?

No one can post about it at Predictor, so the message needs to go out to the BOINC community on other forums.


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Message 3176 - Posted 28 Apr 2007 23:35:09 UTC - in response to Message ID 3174 .

people, please keep in mind that this forum is at docking@home, not predictor@home... I don't tend to discourage you from posting, anyway.

thanks,
suguruhirahara


What does this mean?

I mean, here is the place for docking, so blaming them isnt so good idea, you see.


Excuse me, but isn't this entire thread about censorship at Predictor?

And now you're telling me we can't discuss that?

No one can post about it at Predictor, so the message needs to go out to the BOINC community on other forums.


I don't think that's what Suguru meant. IIRC, I've seen him post in his team forum about how upset he is with Predictor. I don't believe that English is his native language and his English does not seem to be up to it's usual high standards when discussing Predictor.

I'm just a volunteer but I believe the official Docking@Home policy is that Predictor is their project and Docking can't tell them how to run it. You could read Dockings position in more than one way. Personally, from what I've read in other mailing lists and forums, I get the impression that Predictor doesn't like to be told how to run their project by other project admins.

I'm not really up on what's happening currently at Predictor since I detached my machines from there when this mess started.

I haven't deleted any posts about Predictor and I don't intend to, unless it descends into a lot of profanity and name calling. I don't think Suguru intends to delete any posts either. Suguru is a nice person and probably shares your opinion of Predictor so Please go easy on him.

Docking is a very open project and has good communication with it's volunteers. Andre is very good at telling people what's going on, and at listening to people's complaints or suggestions. I do not think you will ever have to worry about Docking ignoring the people who volunteer time on their computers for this project.

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Message 3177 - Posted 29 Apr 2007 15:15:20 UTC - in response to Message ID 3174 .

Excuse me, but isn't this entire thread about censorship at Predictor?

And now you're telling me we can't discuss that?

No one can post about it at Predictor, so the message needs to go out to the BOINC community on other forums.




This thread is indeed about Predictor...

and "legend in his own mind" Ageless is about the only one posting, and is in fact taunting people in the Cafe about not being able to post.


... but in my honest opinion this is not. Let's not start "flaming" people that are not able to reply here.

;-)


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Message 3183 - Posted 30 Apr 2007 10:05:29 UTC
Last modified: 30 Apr 2007 10:06:56 UTC

IMHO the worst thing is that this thread is still needed. ;-(

I think most of us were believing that the main trouble was over. I mean, I decided not to crunch any longer for P@H because I didn't feel welcome there at all. But I had no intentions to grumble at them any longer because it seemed useless. So I continued crunching happily for other projects.

It is really sad to see that now - while everything had calmed down again for some weeks! - some people's accounts got deleted. Not even the account of W*** got deleted (and it was originally him who caused this mess...).
Deleting accounts of "unwanted participants" means that even their contribution in the past is worth nothing in the project leaders' eyes. And it will of course hurt the users' overall BOINC stats as well. So people not acting up accordingly got even worse punishment than the "original cheater"? Quite unbelievable if you ask me... :-(

I really don't understand why this step was taken, because most of the "unwanted participants" were not able (or willing) to post at P@H anymore. It was simply more than unneccessary.
The only thing which makes me still wonder now is why my account still exists while others got deleted. *scratches head* ;-)
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Message 3255 - Posted 6 May 2007 19:11:33 UTC

I personally think he is keeping the profiles as a sort of trophy. Who am I to say why he does what he does. Although he seems too cowardly to approach us directly.

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Message 3305 - Posted 14 May 2007 3:52:10 UTC
Last modified: 14 May 2007 3:53:22 UTC

Well it seems that everyone with the Banned for Life team has been wiped off completely. Including me. While I was in the team I was never actually banned (couldn't post because my RAC was 0). All credit and posts of mine are gone. At least I have Docking to crunch :)


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Message 3307 - Posted 14 May 2007 9:29:07 UTC
Last modified: 14 May 2007 9:29:40 UTC

Hi matie!

My account has gone to nirvana as well including my nice 24K credits (honestly crunched for before the mess started).

Feel free to join a new team: http://predictor.scripps.edu/team_display.php?teamid=3719 .
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Message 3308 - Posted 14 May 2007 10:28:10 UTC
Last modified: 14 May 2007 10:36:04 UTC

My account is gone too and my 106113 credits too of course.
I'm the winner. ;)
Ehm, 23 accounts were deleted without forgotting accounts already deleted/banned "before".

edit : more 200 posts disappeared.

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Message 3309 - Posted 14 May 2007 11:10:18 UTC

Hi - my account is gone too. The only thing I did - I was a member of the "Banned" team and wrote some words in my profile. Since a long time I have nothing posted there in the P@H forum. My question, why deleted I send via email to my dearest friend Mr. B. and I wait now for an answer.
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Message 3310 - Posted 14 May 2007 11:43:33 UTC
Last modified: 14 May 2007 11:43:49 UTC

@Nightbird: Yes you had the most credits of us all at the last BANNED team. :-(

The posts of course disappeared because the users who posted them are deleted, I'm getting errors when trying to read the old threads like "Warning: Cannot modify header information..."

I think Mr. Braun shot himself into the foot because of all this deleting. Poor (minded) guy.
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Message 3311 - Posted 14 May 2007 12:39:19 UTC

I joined with ya Cori but it seems I need to have credit just to show-up as a member of the team. Not sure if I want to do that. (At least I could post in the 'Last to Post Here with Enough Credit Wins' posting.)
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Message 3312 - Posted 14 May 2007 13:36:24 UTC
Last modified: 14 May 2007 13:57:28 UTC

Thank you Acmefrog! I saw you joining because as the team founder I can see all members. ;-)
To others the team seems to be a "ghost" team with no members and no credits. *LOL*

Btw: did you already post in the 'Last to Post Here with Enough Credit Wins' thread there? If so your post would have been deleted as I still see Ageless on top there.

Although I hope for the other possibility that you meant you could post there if you wanted to. ;-)


EDIT:
Btw, Mr. Braun has lost his face: http://predictor.scripps.edu/about_team.php ;-)
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Message 3313 - Posted 14 May 2007 16:44:30 UTC

Our new team from today was just deleted again. Thank god this time I had no more credits to get wiped off. ;-(
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Message 3314 - Posted 14 May 2007 17:20:59 UTC - in response to Message ID 3313 .
Last modified: 14 May 2007 17:21:50 UTC

Our new team from today was just deleted again. Thank god this time I had no more credits to get wiped off. ;-(

+ 2 others teams "Banned/Banned For Life" ;)
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Message 3315 - Posted 14 May 2007 18:14:58 UTC - in response to Message ID 3314 .

Our new team from today was just deleted again. Thank god this time I had no more credits to get wiped off. ;-(

+ 2 others teams "Banned/Banned For Life" ;)


Not that I'm trying to be insensitive to the issue, but if you guys are suprised that you got banned for flaunting the fact that you found a way to circumvent your previous bannings (as innapropriate as said bannings may have seemed to some)....

Well.. er.. I'm trying to think of something non-judgemental to say about a person (Nay! Forum Moderator!) who might find themself in that position...
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Message 3316 - Posted 14 May 2007 18:30:53 UTC

*LOL* Aaron... I was NOT surprised these new teams were deleted.

But I WAS surprised that the "original" BANNED FOR LIFE team got deleted after such a long time of silent existence. ;-)

And especially the fact that many accounts with credits were wiped is not, um... very amusing.
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Message 3317 - Posted 14 May 2007 22:17:59 UTC - in response to Message ID 3315 .
Last modified: 14 May 2007 22:18:36 UTC

Our new team from today was just deleted again. Thank god this time I had no more credits to get wiped off. ;-(

+ 2 others teams "Banned/Banned For Life" ;)


Not that I'm trying to be insensitive to the issue, but if you guys are suprised that you got banned for flaunting the fact that you found a way to circumvent your previous bannings (as innapropriate as said bannings may have seemed to some)....

Well.. er.. I'm trying to think of something non-judgemental to say about a person (Nay! Forum Moderator!) who might find themself in that position...


I had just joined banned for life because I felt the same as they did. I had not ever been banned as I had not said anything that was worth being bannable. But now just because I felt the same as my now wiped teammates I was completely wiped as well. No notice. No warning or anything from the Brauninator. Sure some of the members likely went overboard and said things that would have gotten them banned at other sites, but I had not. (Or maybe so I thought?!?!?) My joining was a form of silent protest at the site to show my displeasure with how many of us were treated.
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Message 3318 - Posted 15 May 2007 2:02:55 UTC
Last modified: 15 May 2007 2:03:48 UTC

From the Predictor home page:

05/14/07

Due to recent attacks on the Predictor@Home forums by a small group of malicious hackers we have enabled some restrictions in the forums. We apologize for the inconvenience this may cause our volunteers. As so often is the case a few bad apples can spoil the lot and their behavior has forced us to enforce policies we would prefer not to. The accounts used by the attackers have been deleted. Despite these issues, which we will weather, we continue to value your efforts and the resources you volunteer toward the scientific objectives of the Predictor@Home project.


Barf.

Jordless and DLB deserve each other.
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Message 3319 - Posted 15 May 2007 4:59:00 UTC - in response to Message ID 3312 .
Last modified: 15 May 2007 5:00:04 UTC

Thank you Acmefrog! I saw you joining because as the team founder I can see all members. ;-)
To others the team seems to be a "ghost" team with no members and no credits. *LOL*

Btw: did you already post in the 'Last to Post Here with Enough Credit Wins' thread there? If so your post would have been deleted as I still see Ageless on top there.

Although I hope for the other possibility that you meant you could post there if you wanted to. ;-)


I hadn't posted yet because I need credit. I have recreated myself there again and am crunching one WU so that I can.

I also see that we have been labeled malicious hackers by the Brauninator.
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Message 3320 - Posted 15 May 2007 6:58:24 UTC - in response to Message ID 3316 .
Last modified: 15 May 2007 7:44:51 UTC

*LOL* Aaron... I was NOT surprised these new teams were deleted.

But I WAS surprised that the "original" BANNED FOR LIFE team got deleted after such a long time of silent existence. ;-)

And especially the fact that many accounts with credits were wiped is not, um... very amusing.


I think that for a project administrator, deleting an account is the *last* option.

It is quite possibly the worst thing you can do, socially. Though..

I still have predictor credits, so I rescind that statement. Delete away! FIND THE HOOLIGANS AND DELETE THEM ALL!
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Message 3322 - Posted 15 May 2007 14:44:14 UTC

If you look at the top teams or top participants, it's clear that in terms of participation that Predictor is now a "private" project.

The top 4 users, by a factor of 10 in RAC, are Jordless, Braun and the two project scientists. They just crunch away and provide quorum for each other.

There is only one team (and amazingly, the only menmber is Jordless) with an RAC over a few hundred.

Looks like that project needs to be removed from BOINC.

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Message 3323 - Posted 15 May 2007 14:58:42 UTC
Last modified: 15 May 2007 15:03:48 UTC

guys, please don't be wild here, whatever you've been done there...
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Message 3324 - Posted 15 May 2007 16:58:06 UTC - in response to Message ID 3323 .

guys, please don't be wild here, whatever you've been done there...


There's nobody being "wild" here.

This censorship/libel thing needs to be discussed in every project forum, to get the word out about those people.

Obviously, it can't be discussed on *their* forum...
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Message 3327 - Posted 15 May 2007 22:27:29 UTC - in response to Message ID 3324 .
Last modified: 15 May 2007 22:28:08 UTC

guys, please don't be wild here, whatever you've been done there...


There's nobody being "wild" here.

This censorship/libel thing needs to be discussed in every project forum, to get the word out about those people.

Obviously, it can't be discussed on *their* forum...

And thankfully we could borrow this forum (thread) for discussion. ;-)
Proteins can vary a lot I'd say. *grin*


To that fairy tale of us former members of BFL team being "malicious hackers" I can only say that I didn't post on P@H forums since the first "heat wave" about W*te and censorship had ended.
(That was at the end of March or some days later.)
Most of the times there was a RAC >1 needed so I couldn't post there anyway.
I even told DLB in an email that I did not wish to come back to his precious forums!
But I think I deserve my account and credit data to be restored and this should be the same for the previous BFL team members.
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Message 3329 - Posted 16 May 2007 1:13:21 UTC - in response to Message ID 3324 .
Last modified: 16 May 2007 1:15:43 UTC

guys, please don't be wild here, whatever you've been done there...


There's nobody being "wild" here.

This censorship/libel thing needs to be discussed in every project forum, to get the word out about those people.

Obviously, it can't be discussed on *their* forum...

So what is the relationship between the censorship and this post of you?
If you look at the top teams or top participants, it's clear that in terms of participation that Predictor is now a "private" project.

Looks like that project needs to be removed from BOINC.

It's like going another way.

And thankfully we could borrow this forum (thread) for discussion. ;-)

Of course we could :D
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Message 3330 - Posted 16 May 2007 5:15:36 UTC - in response to Message ID 3322 .
Last modified: 16 May 2007 5:33:16 UTC

If you look at the top teams or top participants, it's clear that in terms of participation that Predictor is now a "private" project.


Nope not "private"... if I wanted I could still crunch there.
I have chosen not to do so by myself... ;-)

But I think I deserve my account and credit data to be restored and this should be the same for the previous BFL team members.


You have my vote on this one Cori... you and your team spended a lot of cpu-cycles there.

How/if or when this would happen is unlucky for you (and your team) in the hands of the crew there at this moment.
Maybe a period of one-sided "rest" could solve things.

But... let's not forget... a "new" project called docking has come to the resque.
Cpu cycles are save here.

;-)

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Message 3334 - Posted 16 May 2007 11:27:00 UTC - in response to Message ID 3330 .
Last modified: 16 May 2007 11:27:28 UTC



Actually.. could I get my posts in this thread deleted please? I don't want to lose my credits at predictor should Mr. B come in here and see my posts...

Yes, I'm scrrd!
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Message 3336 - Posted 16 May 2007 15:01:51 UTC - in response to Message ID 3334 .



Actually.. could I get my posts in this thread deleted please? I don't want to lose my credits at predictor should Mr. B come in here and see my posts...

Yes, I'm scrrd!


It's not Braunie who will come visiting - he's too above actually seeing what goes on in other projects. Too self-centered.

It's that snoopy suck-up Jordless who will cause trouble, carrying his tales back to his master.
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Message 3339 - Posted 16 May 2007 16:39:18 UTC

I "think" you were joking but if someone seriously wants their posts deleted from this thread, just let me know and quote this message in your request so I know you're serious.

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Message 3341 - Posted 16 May 2007 18:32:09 UTC

Well to be honest... I hope Aaron was joking.
If not it would be a shame if people are becoming scared because of what meight happen after posting on boards outside the Predictor community.

:-|

But let's not jump to conclusions before things happen.
I really don't think (HOPE) that people will be banned by posting here.

;-)

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Message 3387 - Posted 4 Jun 2007 19:21:50 UTC
Last modified: 6 Jun 2007 5:12:56 UTC

What's the situation over at Predictor these days? I notice there are a lot of posts by Braun (dlb) these days and news items on the front page almost every day so it looks like the project is now actually keeping users well informed on the technical aspects of the project.

It won't let me post, even to the help section because my rac is 0.06 since I haven't crunched there since this mess started. I'm now crunching 1 WU so hopefully I'll have enough RAC to ask a question in the forum over there.

Other than having a bunch of users mad at them because of the censorship issue, how is the project doing NOW. Are they still censoring heavily?

I know there are a lot of people mad at them and I agree with the reasons. What I'm getting at is whether the only remaining problem is that dlb refuses to apologize in public and restore their credits or are the other problems still continuing?

Happy Crunching,

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Message 3393 - Posted 6 Jun 2007 18:47:07 UTC - in response to Message ID 3387 .
Last modified: 6 Jun 2007 18:51:04 UTC

What's the situation over at Predictor these days?
...I know there are a lot of people mad at them and I agree with the reasons. What I'm getting at is whether the only remaining problem is that dlb refuses to apologize in public and restore their credits or are the other problems still continuing?

Hi David! :-)

I am not really sure about the current progress there. It has gotten quiet about the censorship issue there.
Of course the main reason for that is the fact that people concerned about it were deleted or just have left the project without looking back.

Today it seems that all sorts of "technical" questions can be asked (with appropriate RAC of course ;-)) and get answered.
I am still pretty sure that any question concerning the old "censorship issue" would be treated as bad as before.
I am not even convinced that any question regarding the way of how the project/forum is led in general would be welcomed. But I can't prove because I no longer exist there. *grin*

So crunch on and let us know! ;-)


PS. And I also still don't like the idea of "rewarding" the "good" users there with assigned machines (and of course credits en masse ) from the projects' computer lab at the same time when me and others lost all their credits due to deletion. :-(
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Message 3394 - Posted 7 Jun 2007 19:55:58 UTC

There's a thread at BOINCstats about the recent behaviour of P@H admin.
Mo.v. (mod at CPDN forums) wrote that her posts got deleted. I like her statement very much.
See: http://www.boincstats.com/forum/forum_thread.php?id=2137&nowrap=true#20697
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Message 3395 - Posted 9 Jun 2007 8:27:30 UTC

I could have sworn that a few weeks back, I saw some posts by Mo.v in the P@H forums sort of defending P@H actions and saying let's move on from here. I could easily be mistaken, though.

Anyway, I gave up and detached the machine that I had attached to P@H to get a little RAC so I could post in their forum. Before I could find the thread I wanted to post in, I read enough stuff by people complaining about IP bans and such, that I just said forget this.

I'd much rather spend my time crunching here at Docking..... I'll sure be glad when the new version of Charmm is ready for us to crunch with. It sounds promising.

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Message 3396 - Posted 9 Jun 2007 20:06:06 UTC

I don't think that Mo.v defended P@H actions but she was always keeping up a way of being polite when asking questions and trying to explain the original Wate issue.
I liked her postings very much because she never was unfair. Even when she realized that dlb didn't really like any suggestions about how the situation could be improved without harsh restrictions towards the "bad" users.

Also she showed a delightful sense of humor when she posted this one on April 1st... have a good laugh at it! I still have to giggle when I read it... ;-)

But the best thing now is definitely "forget this" and stay with better projects like Docking. Wish you a happy weekend and of course happy crunching! :-)
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Message 3398 - Posted 10 Jun 2007 23:25:06 UTC - in response to Message ID 3396 .

I don't think that Mo.v defended P@H actions but she was always keeping up a way of being polite when asking questions and trying to explain the original Wate issue.
I liked her postings very much because she never was unfair. Even when she realized that dlb didn't really like any suggestions about how the situation could be improved without harsh restrictions towards the "bad" users.

Also she showed a delightful sense of humor when she posted this one on April 1st... have a good laugh at it! I still have to giggle when I read it... ;-)

But the best thing now is definitely "forget this" and stay with better projects like Docking. Wish you a happy weekend and of course happy crunching! :-)

The best thing is indeed to stay with better projects but without forgotting what's happened at Predictor.


____________


Do you want to get banned for 31 years and your account & credits deleted at a Boinc project ? Predictor@home is your best choice.
Nightbird
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Joined: Oct 2 06
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Credit: 11,804
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Message 3399 - Posted 11 Jun 2007 0:14:32 UTC

A door was opened and will never be closed.
I do not think that people are aware of the gravity of what's happened.
Legitimate questions are born and are without answer so far : what has to be the relations between a project and crunchers ? What are the responsibilities, the respective roles of each ?
What is the right of each for the information or the possibilities of access to the information ? what information ?
Is it possible to protect people against any hostile project ?
I also wonder about the behavior of the teams and the individuals.


____________


Do you want to get banned for 31 years and your account & credits deleted at a Boinc project ? Predictor@home is your best choice.

Profile [B^S] Acmefrog
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Posts: 45
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Message 3400 - Posted 11 Jun 2007 5:31:46 UTC

The Brauninator is still at it. Over at the Free-DC forums a person named Angus was just wiped for correcting dlb.
[url] http://www.free-dc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=12379[/url]

There was a thread over there complaining about WU stopping with a "waiting for memory" error message.

The Braun character blamed it on BOINC, so I pointed out that it's his application that is demanding huge amounts of memory, and BOINC is just reporting it.

For my trouble, my account got deleted, and my IP banned.

____________
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Message 3406 - Posted 18 Jun 2007 20:18:56 UTC
Last modified: 18 Jun 2007 20:21:21 UTC

We, the BOINCHeidelberg team (with the help of other teams like BOINC Synergy and Alliance Francophone and others), decided to write an open letter to the P@H administration.
We suggest that as many teams as possible join in!


Each team should make a poll about if they want to put their team name on this letter. They should also inform their members maybe by email to get a good representation of the opinion. Teams should "sign up" by sending an email to "against.censorship AT gmx.net", best with a link to the result of their poll (to know these persons are authorized to speak for the team). Deadline should be end of June.

The letter can be found (in English and German) here (at BOINCstats forums) or at the BOINC@Heidelberg team forum .

Please sign in, teams! :-)
____________
Bribe me with Lasagna!! :-)

Message boards : Cafe Docking : Massive censorship at Predictor !!!

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